Shelved by: Shinigamo on 2012-05-07 | Source
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Malevolent? Maybe. He killed like a million people in the old testament. (More than Satan)
Read it already, but thank you.
found it way too appropriate not to post it
i was thinking of the same post, since i ended up arguing with another user's comments for forever.
Not really a very good argument
How dare someone use basic logical thinking as the basis for an argument.
Or he doesn't care... Thus he is indifferent.
Which leads to the question, why worship him if he doesn't care?
sorry to do this, but I gotta pull a Nixie on this one:
I doubt he was referring to the fallacy.
he wasn't, but he said "begs the question" incorrectly before he edited.
It's a phrase as well as a formal term.
Am I becoming a verb?
Because wouldn't you want to worship an all powerful all knowing indifferent god? Afterall he created everything and just left us to ourselves... Oh wait...
No I wouldn't as it is a waste of time, I'll say thanks when I see him in the afterlife though (if there is one).
Feh... I think there is an afterlife in the sense there's something after life.
We all carry on in one form or another.
Touche, well said.
I know it's a quote, but "Then why call him God" is a question - even if it's rhetorical - so should end with the appropriate punctuation.
Although; can we just stop with the religious stuff? Can we all agree that we just wont try to cram any sort of religious, or anti-religious, preachings down someone else's throat on this site? Just have a total ban of it?
It's just getting stupid, and is just causing arguments, which are stupid and pathetic.
EDIT: Oh, and I've decided to become Nordic as everyone says I should start believing in something. I mean, how can you argue with the fact that Odin swore to get rid of the Ice Giants and, indeed, there are no Ice Giants about?
I agree. Cramming your view down one's throat doesn't make him change his mind. It's no different if it's pro-religion or anti-religion. Really all it does is create tension and division.
I was always told everyone is different and that's acceptable. I was also taught to respect one another.
Yeah, I was always taught that too.
Maybe it's different for me; I'm living in the UK where people don't give a shit what your beliefs are, just as long as you don't try to hack their head off or anything.
Where I'm at it's more like "I'm right and you're wrong and I will get the last word in to prove it."
This goes with politics, sexual orientation, religion, and Star Wars vs Star Trek. I'm kind of on the fence with the last two.
Yeah... No offence, but the States seems pretty shitty for a country which proclaims it's all about freedom. They seem to be really controlling on what people should like and dislike.
So what if someone is a Christian? So what if another person is an Atheist? Who cares that that guy over there is a Muslim? And them homosexuals - does it really effect you? No. As long as no-one does anything which is against the law, I really couldn't give a damn.
I am an Atheist (although I'm now Nordic just for the sake of it and it seems cool); I have three Christian friends - one is Catholic, one is protestant and one is Evangelical. I have one Islamic friend, and one Muslim friend. I am friends with two Jews, five blacks, three Hispanics, four from some place in Europe and about half of them are gay. Has any of them done anything bad to me? No. Has any of them preached to me? No. Has any of them come on to me? Well... Yes... But I quickly told her that she wasn't my type. Did I mind? A bit, but I quickly got over it and nothing changed between us.
And damnit, who could give a damn about which is better? They're both good series!
People should just get on and accept that we're all different. It makes like much more interesting to meet different people. Who wants to be the same?
The problem in the states is actually the Christian majority. Many atheists and agnostics become hostile out of a necessary reaction to fight back.
But why is it important to have the discussion in a neutral place? Why to people like Hitchens and Dawkins take time out of their schedule to fight religion even when they're "above" it?
Because there are bigger issues.
1) Much tragedy has been and continues done in the name of religion.
2) Why believe that which you cannot show to be right?
3) In America, evolution and creationism are considered "rival equals," which is, to borrow from the late Hitchens, patently absurd.
There's more to this than just accepting others for who they are, but establishing the truth.
"Thinkers usually have trouble interacting with people that are inconsistent or illogical, and tend to give very direct feedback to others. They are concerned with the truth and view it as more important than being tactful."
What is this tact you speak of? Is that where you beat around the bush to not hurt "feelings"?
Also what are these "feelings"? I have never experienced one...
It's actually a quote about personality types. It's pretty informative to study as it turns out.
I hope it comes up in my Psych electives.
The UK is a Christian majority, most of Europe is! But, generally speaking, we do not give a shit what our neighbour's religion is as long as they're not hurting anyone.
In fact, if you want to make people feel awkward in Europe, loudly proclaim your religion. It's generally a subject you don't talk about.
Life is so much bloody easier this way! We do kinda have a few more millenniums under our belt when it comes to Christianity, so stop making our mistakes in modern day times! Just go "well, that's what you think, and that's nice. I don't agree but we're different people so it doesn't matter that much."
I'm a thinker. I think a lot! I don't dictate what people should believe though!
I'm open to discuss religion; I have very long discussions about religion and how to make the world better with our local Jehovah Witnesses. I'm not going to become religious, too much has happened for that, but I'm not going to scold anyone else for being religious.
That quote was about personality types. If a "feeler" thought a lot, it wouldn't change the types of things they thought. It wouldn't make them more logical.
And don't think I do this only on religion. Giantpenguin87 and I had a big fight over whether or not it's possible to know anything about the universe. I could argue with someone over determinism or the death penalty--wait, we did that.
I'm just sick over the topic of religion.
Can we just have something FUNNY?
My argument was dreadful! But then that's because I don't really know if I supported it or not...
Well, we're not hurting you. Just scroll on by.
Nah, you're not, it's just getting to the stage of being really irritating.
You're not religious. We get that. A lot of people aren't religious on here. That's nice.
Your big beef on Religion is that you get attacked and preached from Christians about it.
Why are you being so hypocritical then?
I don't get attacked on the basis of my non-religion, no, I've scared most of them off by now.
I will fight as pious as they do, for my positions are correct and I can show that, and if their position is actually correct and they can show it, then I will cede.
I don't get why other people arguing about Religion on a website that doesn't belong to her is getting her so riled up.
Especially when she holds the same beliefs as you.
Do you suppose there is someone in the room with a gun to her head forcing her to read and comment on everything in the lolbrary?
I don't mind debates. Debates are brilliant.
I just think it's pointless to start them with the majority of (American) Christians, as it's essentially boils down to you showing evidence and the other person shoving their fingers in their ears.
It's like trying to talk a wall into moving; it's not gonna happen.
But it is our choice to talk to that unmovable wall in the hopes that one day it moves.
Why does it bother you so much if I want to talk to a wall?
Are you being forced to listen to my conversation with this wall?
Is there an exam later?
Yes. Yes there is. Take notes.
1) Please don't classify me with those so called "Christians." Also, a lot of horrible things have happened in the name of satanism, Islam, atheism, racism, sexism, etc.
2) This is subjective. Things in my life I feel have proved God's existence. I guess it depends on whose point of view we're coming from.
3)I believe in Evolution. This argument is invalid.
I usually stay quiet on the religious rants. It's not really worth the fighting. I believe there are many wonderful quotes on the usefulness of arguing.
On a side note you could use that quote for any view, even to oppose you. Who is speaking truth on this subject is subjective.
Also, I like you. I'm not picking on you. It's just that the other person in this conversation so far hasn't really said anything productive to his argument. His style reminds me of Fox News.
Every Christian is different. You know, cause they're people too?
I think more the argument is is that I've seen way too many Christians that have gone "oh, Christianity has done no wrong!" and kinda... Yeah... They have... Arguably some of the worse events in History have happened because of Christianity...
To be fair, it's the mixture of religious beliefs and human nature. We want something to justify our actions; "oh, you must die because you're not a Christian and that makes you a devil worshipper"
I think Loki was onto something when he was talking about taking away free will. Works on the Sims, anyway
1) When has organized atheism done an Inquisition, or a literal witch hunt, or a crusade?
2) I'm speaking of an absolute truth. If god actually exists, then there should be an impersonal way of showing or demonstrating this.
3) Evolution and Genesis cannot coexist. Without Genesis, salvation is useless.
That quote was, as I've said before here, a quote about personality types. It was more of an explanation for why I was acting the way I was acting and where my priorities lied.
1) Famous atheists who killed mass groups and were very vocal on being atheist: Joseph Stalin and his followers. Napoleon and his armies - When conquering they destroyed whole cities of people who opposed him. Just google for more examples.
It's not like every Christian agreed with the witch hunts, Christian Crusades, etc. I'm sure there were many Christians who opposed but stayed quiet to stay alive or avoid family suffering - just like Christians are ashamed of the picketers who picket military funerals. Or This
They are considered CRAZY by the mainstream Christians. All of these examples go against the basic teachings of Christianity. We're supposed to love our neighbors. Obviously putting all Christians with them would be like saying "all white people are racist and want slavery to be legal again because their ancestors did" or "white people are awful because of apartheid in Africa." Or lets compare atheist to Kim Jong II.
A lot of good things have happened in God's name. Martin Luther King Jr, missionaries, homeless shelters, etc.
2) I am not getting into this. It's obvious that you would see it differently. Would you even acknowledge it if proof was right in front of you?
3) This is just an argument tactic or else you have been listening to the crazies' talk and assumed it was a must in the religion. Really? You think all Christians took that translation that literally?
Give me an example of proof and I will process and evaluate it with an open mind.
If you tell me about a plane crash and that at least 1 child survived I am gonna be pissed.
What caused the random explosion? Scientists can't explain it. Something caused the Big Bang.
The world is too perfect. If the world was any closer or further to the sun we'd die because the atmosphere would be unsuitable for life or the water would be either vapor or frozen. The things we need to survive and the reasons none of the planets closest to us have life is because Earth is placed perfectly, revolving perfectly and rotating perfectly.
We evolved but along the way picked up stuff that is really not needed for survival of the fittest. Do we really need color vision to be as clear and vast as what we have to survive? What about the gift of music? Why can we hear the different pitches and make beauty from it? (although some people clearly missed this one.) There are so many "extra" features we have that came along with our evolved forms that were more for our enjoyment than survival.
Edit: I missed a question mark. My bad. :)
At no point to I see anything other than conjecture and biased opinion, science offers explanations for all of those things.
There are billions and billions of Solar systems seems likely that at least one of them would have a perfectly placed planet.
The gift of music? We learned to make melodies based on our ability of hearing. Would you say fashion is a form of proof of God?
Color vision....if you don't see this as useful, talk to a color blind person...and just....think...about any predator prey situation...
Infinite regression as for what caused the big bang, as I don't feel like explaining quantum physics, I will just say if you are using that argument what created God? Where did he come from? It is as likely to assume that the energy always existed and that sometimes as quantum physics has proven on the extremely microscopic level sometimes random interactions occur.
I should have known open mind meant trap. I should have stuck with my original reply.
Why do you spend so much energy starting these type of fights? You're just as bad as the Christians who push their views and drive people insane.
Well I'm done with this post. I know now that you are just trying to start drama. I'll take your advice on ignoring these replies. Thanks! Best thing you've said all night.
No hard feelings here. Catch you in a post where we agree.
I am sorry that stating scientific facts is viewed as a trap by you.
I am not pushing my views on you, I figured you would keep on believing what you believe.
I like to debate, there is a difference between between a well intended debate and starting a fight.
I could have just said "What are you fucking stupid? read a textbook dumbass it's all in there."
But I didn't, thanks for expressing your views. Best wishes.
Okay, this isn't to reignite an argument, but I see an opportunity for clarity.
In your "too perfect" paragraph, you seem to be placing causality in the wrong place. You see conditions necessary for our survival and see them as necessary, but they're only necessary if we are. If you don't start with the presumption that we are necessary, things go different. Here, let me explain.
The sun is at the right distance from earth to have liquid water on earth. Now, do we have liquid water on earth because the sun is the right distance, or is the sun the right distance because we have liquid water on earth?
The answer is observably the former. They're referred to as "green belts" -- the zone around a sun where liquid water can form, which are the same regions we expect to find life.
Now, are the planet's conditions designed so that we can survive on it, or are our survival capabilities such that we can survive in the planet's conditions?
Stalin was raised in a very religious family and was forced to hate the teachings and hypocrisy that he observed in the religious order.
That's why he killed a couple people, not saying it was right.
But I am saying that if he hadn't been bread and raised to contempt the church he wouldn't have did that shit.
So it's kinda the churches fault, jus sayin'
2) If by proof you meant what I meant when I say proof, then, yes, I would have no choice but to acknowledge it.
3) The importance of Genesis to Christianity is insurmountable. It gives the reason why we all should suffer hell and why it persists within each and every one of us. How one can use Christianity with no actual need to be saved is beyond me.
1) Napoleon was an Imperial conquerer. Stalin and his followers are only one instance, and while what they did was atrocious, it's still nothing compared to what has happened.
This site, like most of the internet, has always leaned towards the anti-religious. There are a number of examples from before the site even became forum-like. This very image is actually a repost.
It may not be that the person is super religiously charged, but just found the image to be funny so they posted it. At least in the general case, though Shinigamo apparently has a preference.
The Chinese Whispers one (or the phone game, which I've never heard of) is much more an issue with misrepresentation.
If I'm honest, I wouldn't give two damns if it was more of a target at the fact that you get religious, mainly Christians, misrepresenting things and that it's almost exclusively Christians which preach that people should convert.
But I think it's becoming too much of "CHRISTIANITY IS SHIT!" "NO YOU!" and it's really getting on my nerves. People are entitled to have their own beliefs, and if it's not hurting you why should it matter what they are?
As I just said above (after you posted this response), they should be allowed to practice their religion, but why anyone would want to be wrong is beyond me.
Ah, but in their opinion you're wrong. So it comes to that argument. And it's never ending.
And just gets irritating.
Grammar police are irritating too, we don't complain and demand you stop do we? If you don't want to argue about Religion, skip the post, nobody is forcing you to read and comment.
Yes, but grammar is actually important for life whilst someone's religion is not.
You'll be taken far more seriously if you use correct grammar in a letter, or email, than if you don't.
Plus, it's not causing any anger, tension or hatred, or stupidly long arguments about who is right and who is wrong.
EDIT: plus, it's been pretty much cropping up EVERYWHERE on lolbrary now. I don't care about the odd posts about it, but it seems like it's been solid "anti-Christian" for a week now. There are more things to laugh about than someone's belief being bollocks or not.
Grammar is more important than what some people consider to be the basis for all life and what gives them their meaning for existence? DAMN
It's an internet forum, nobody gives a flying fuck about their grammar on here. It's pretty easy to throw in some punctuation and capitals when you need to be professional.
Plus the people that actually can't use grammar because they are retarded aren't going to learn it because they got corrected this one time by some stranger on an internet forum.
You are just wasting your time.
And you're wasting your time being a dick on here too, but hey, you still do it.
I'm not being a dick, I am just being honest. I guess the truth hurts?
If you are tired of arguing as you claim to be in many posts, log the fuck out and let others argue.
If this isn't your website than you don't need to be present and comment and judge everything on here.
You yourself stated "Even though sometimes I am an asshole" That's what I'm talking about.
I don't believe I am being an asshole, shall we debate?
You say you are tired of arguing, yet continue replying to everything everyone says.
So I suggest you log out and leave the arguing to people who are interested in it.
May have used colorful words but I don't believe I was out of line.
I mean in general on this site. Such as, in general on this site I've correct grammar. I haven't in this "thread" though.
Nixie-the-Pixie | 0 points | Submitted 2012-05-07 15:54:35 (Edited)
I know it's a quote, but "Then why call him God" is a question - even if it's rhetorical - so should end with the appropriate punctuation.
Oh forgot about that.
See, I just do it automatically.
While I find it amusing most of the time, I play online MMO's and it happens a lot on those as well.
The fact that you seem to feel it is your sworn duty to uphold the laws of grammar on an internet forum seems illogical to me.
Then again to each their own.
I have stated elsewhere it's actually because I'm slightly OCD about it - I grew up with a speech impediment, so couldn't make myself clearly understood so became fixated on ensuring my written text was practically perfected instead. Since I also grew up in a household where everyone corrected me on everything, I also started to correct people. Including when it came to written language.
I know it's stupid, but it really bothers me. And it's a stupid thing to be bothered about.
It's like being bothered about someone else's religion who lives miles away from you.
The only people whom their Religion bothers me are the extremists.
Other than that I just enjoy debating and challenging view points.
It's like being bothered about other people arguing about religion on a website when you have no responsibility to read and comment on the subject whatsoever.
Which is like being bothered by people correcting your grammar.
Extremists are... Well, extremists. They are not to be confused with regular Religious beliefs
I'm not bothered by your policing of grammar, just find it odd.
Interesting to see that there is a legitimate origin for doing it.
Yeah, I'm not doing it to be a dick, or belittle people. It's a problem, really. A lot of people have gotten irritated about how anal I am about the English language. I'm irritated by how fixated I am by it, but I just... have to correct it.
Yeah, it's a problem.
I correct spoken language too, despite still having a speech impediment. I have the opinion that no-one wants to mispronounce something, I sure as hell hate the fact I can't speak properly, so appreciate being told the correct pronunciation.
Interesting. Ever think of studying linguistics? Or speech therapy? Not saying this to be an asshole seems like you are interested in it.
I don't know what I could do with it, tbh.
I've been told to be an English teacher, but with a speech impediment I would find that really embarrassing. Anything to do with public speaking is daunting for me.
I'm interested in the English Language, but not to that level anyway. I write though. People can't tell you can't speak properly when you write.
Wanna know something really funny? I also have a mild form of dyslexia. It doesn't effect my typing work, as I know where the letters are on the keyboard, but my hand written stuff is appalling. Lower case ps, ds and bs muddled up, gs with the loop going up, words completely missing etc
Probably why I fixated on it, tbh.
You could be a speech therapist. The world needs people who actually care about what they are learning and what they do. Rather than a bunch of business majors who just want to keep the system running and make a paycheck.
That's why I have taken til' 22 to even decide on a major in school.
But who would take a speech therapist who can't talk properly seriously? For the first 13 years of my life I couldn't say cat, dog, God, harsh sounding words. And it's not just harsh word; last year I finally managed to pronounce millennium. And I stutter and get stuck on words
For me, personally, I prefer it when someone finishes what I'm trying to say when I've gotten stuck on a word. I know it's said not to be polite, but I'd prefer it over being stuck on one word for half a minute. Which is ages when you're in that situation.
And anyway, I can't be one even if I wanted to because I have a stammer.
Maybe through study you might find or invent a way to help yourself cope or improve?
But I understand your hesitance.
Gogo creative writing classes?
Just gotta get a Harry Potter level idea and your good to go.
Oh, I'm already writing.
Well, I have a skeleton of a story. The characters are set, the general gist of it has been structured, now I just need to actually write it.
Well, I need to alter it. I wrote the bases of it years ago, so it's a bit of...
Well, it's a bit weak. But I can sort that out.
I don't know why, but I got really upset talking about the fact I can't speak correctly. It must bother me more than I thought it did. I shall now watch the kitten tripping over itself to cheer me up.
Well good luck with the story.
Didn't mean to upset you.
Don't worry about it. It's just because of how my dad was about it, and the kids in school. Which I'm not going to go into.
And thanks ;p
This should never be a matter of opinion. It should be a matter of establishing objective truth.
But people aren't going to appreciate it. And whether you like it or not, someone will always be religious. You just have to accept that's how they feel about the subject and not allow yourself to be bothered by it.
I get the defending things; I've received plenty of death threats (I'm not over-exaggerating, I have been told by a Christian if they meet me they'd kill me) for being Atheist, but I don't sit here and go "oh this and this is bad about your religion" unless, essentially, they've started it.
If more people start calling attention to the bigotry and sexism of Religion, maybe someday something will be done about it?
Some people enjoy debating this because if you just sweep it under the rug nothing can ever change.
Whereas if you question people and debate things however unlikely there is still a possibility of change.
But it'll always stay that there will be religious people. You can't change that. People will always want to believe in something. I want to believe that my other cat wasn't poisoned with Anti-Freeze, because I don't want to think about how a person can do that to an animal, but there isn't any other explanation available.
The thing is, we don't have bigotry and sexism in the majority of our Religions here; the Law, ultimately, comes before Religion. If your religion contains something which is against the law, it can't be practised.
Not saying that's the same for all countries, but we're quite lucky in the UK, tbh.
It's just tolerance. People need to tolerate other people rather than beat them on the head with a stick because they're different.
I don't want to tolerate people who think that theirs is the one true God and all others must bow down or die. Even though their only form of proof is that it can't be "disproved"
I'm not saying about tolerating them idiots. Anyone that does the "Do or die!" is just a twat, to be really blunt about it.
The majority of Christians I know don't care that I'm an Atheist.
Both my grandmothers and my grandfather are Catholic. They've never scolded me for my lack of religion. In turn, I have never patronised them for their religious beliefs. And it's the same with all my friends with religious beliefs. Frankly, none of us give a damn what each others beliefs are!
And I've found most of the arguments on here are started by the Atheists! So the arguments of defending yourself is absolute bullshit on here.
I don't say Do or die! to anyone.
I enjoy debating different points of view however pointless it may be. I don't care if their views wont change, I like digging into why they believe what they do.
I have many religious friends. None of them devalue me because I don't believe as they do, but we still talk and joke about it.
Yeah, but on the internet someone is always gonna be offended. Even if you don't mean it offensively.
And frankly, it's just easier if you don't bother with it.
And I didn't say you said "do or die" just that the people who have that general opinion are utter idiots.
And I don't mind it in a jokey joke joke manner. The "Did I stutter" and "A Fellow Dark Knight" etc religious commentaries posts are funny.
And now everything in my mind has stopped, as this came on on my playlist.
I can't help if well intended debate offends people.
So you make people bow to your views?
When did I say to bow to my views?
I don't care if you believe otherwise, I just enjoy debating and discussing view points.
It don't matter to me if you believe that there is a flying spaghetti monster out there that created everything.
I mostly just wanted to see reactions...
I'm an agnostic myself, while I deny the notion that there is an all powerful being watching everyone and everything's every move and directly intervening.
I am slightly open to the idea of a creator who does not intervene in the world. I believe that there may be an afterlife of sorts or perhaps reincarnation but I don't bank on it and live my life to try to please some watcher in the sky, but at the same time I believe wholeheartedly in what Science is able to prove.
I believe in the total sum of the physical laws of nature as Einstein did. (inb4 QQ Einstein believed in God, I have read his whole biography and he referred to God as the sum of the physical laws of nature and said it would be stupid to worship gravity so he does not worship a God).
I mostly made this post to see how people reacted.
I also believe it is possible to be a moral and good person without following some rules in an old book. (Even though sometimes I am an asshole).
Guessing the first two sentences were suppose to be one...
I respect that; it's your own opinion. And quite a good one, tbh.
I'm just getting sick of the arguments about this.
the people who follow the book dont own the rules in it(its centuries old, even by american IP laws its part of the public domain), agreeing with them(whichever rules in whatever book you like) or not is up to you. Sadly this doesnt apply to everything, for example disagreeing with gravity doesnt let you fly.
Also an agnostic, i dont expect there to be a god or an afterlife, I hope there isnt an afterlife or anything like it.
I do hope that if there is a god in the sky he's just some bearded dude sitting on the clouds looking down, too awesome to intervene. Someone like the big lebowski, just chillin' you know.
True dat, do you know how boring it would be if there were an afterlife in the sense of heaven. Like what would you do after being there for 100,000,000 years?
Damn this post is a can of worms.
Go to a different website and broadcast how atheist you are. I want to laugh. That is all.
Most popular websites are predominantly atheist, or at least highly skeptical of religion.
Facebook doesn't count, since the majority of people on facebook are borderline retarded.
Hey look a argument in the comment section! Oh boy which side do i choose?! Do i say "God exists" Or "God does not exist"!!! Its like StarWars battlefront 2 all over again!!! Having to pick sides!
Replace all the "God/he" with "human kind" and then answer the questions appropriately and tell me what you end up with Mr.Atheists winning since 33AD.
PS. I have always wondered since Atheists don't believe in God or Afterlife, then what is the meaning of your existence. Can an Atheist please answer that question for me?
Instead of asking yourself "Why does God let this happen?", shouldn't we ask the question "Why do WE let this happen?".
As Cloister the Stupid once said "people are just using religion as an excuse to be extremely crappy to each other".
Maybe God doesn't help because he only helps those who help themselves and if he solved all our problems for us, we wouldn't learn a thing. And we're here to learn after all.