Vegans...

Anyone know her name? I want to look up her stuff.

Chelsea Handler, I believe. Not entirely sure, though.

not chelsea handler

I was wrong before. it is Chelsea Peretti.

Nice, thanks :)

when cows and bees can agree to a work contract and receive agreed upon compensation for their labor she'll have a point.

When bees and cows actually see what they're doing as labor and develop the attention span and cognitive ability to recognize what's happening and remember it, you'll have a point.

Ah. The good old, "They're too stupid to deserve rights" argument.

Then I could bring up mentally handicapped people. Then you would mention that they're humans and we should treat them equally.

So basically, everything subhuman just deserves to be exploited, gotcha.

Not a vegan but totally understand their mindset.

For what it's worth, a cow would much rather be milked than not be. There isn't always a calf around to relieve the pressure. And as for bees, I'm not sure they can NOT make honey.

Cows are purposely made to produce and continue producing milk, they don't just make it and need to be milked and humans are doing them a favor. It can happen if a cow gives birth and the baby dies but you can't use that "cows like to be milked" bit to justify the dairy industry's actions. They create the situation where the cows are full of milk to begin with, know what I mean?

And even in a situation where a calf was there and then isn't, just milking off some to relieve pressure but leaving the rest will let the body reabsorb it and slowly stop producing it, that's how it naturally works. Most woman who have breastfed could tell you about it.

The primary basis of the argument is the fact that they don't recognize it as work. It is what they do anyway, regardless of our existence. We are not exploiting anything. In fact, milking cows is healthier for them anyway. Also, the fact that you compared mentally handicapped people to bees made me roll. Hyperbolous analogies to support an argument are still not fact.

Again; we only take milk from a cow when it has no use for it any more and bees don't actually need honey. We only take honeycomb which do not contain bee larve in it.

And if a cow is not milked, it can easily develop a serious infection and die! Oh yes, that is so much better for a cow!

Also! Eggs which we eat are not fertilized. They will just be destroyed by the mothers.

The majority of non-meat products (including egg, they're a dairy) do not harm the animal and is actually an unwanted left over by them which will either just be destroyed by them or will kill them.

In fact, bees also get a lovely home for their honey.

And even with meat, the culling of the animal is very very humane. And if you go with free range it's actually a good quality of life.

Do you think lions give a shit if they eat a person? Do they go "Oh, I can't eat that, it has feelings!"? Or "oh, I feel bad, I ate something with feelings..." No! They get on with it!

No. It's just life. It's called the food chain.

Now, hunting animals for no reason is a different story. We're one of the few species which hunt for fun, which I think is wrong.

lol at least hunting an animal takes skill, and the animal would have lived a better life. I don't support hunting for fun, but if you are using the meat it's better than going to the supermarket. Mass produced livestock is disgusting, most cows will never move more than 100 steps in their life and will most likely not even see the outdoors. They will be pumped full of steroids and antibiotics so that we can get the most meat for the lowest cost, as for killing them humanely, if you think rolling down a conveyor belt watching the cow in front of you die is humane, yah sure. Cows are mammals and while they lack the brain capacity for complex thought they know that they would rather be out and about walking around and alive than stuck in a pen until they are ready to be mass harvested.

Oh, I have no issue with hunting for food, or if you're actually hunting for a reason, but it's the people (mainly men) who hunt them basically to obtain a trophy, or killing an animal just to obtain one bit, like a horn.

Hence why I mentioned "free range". Since we be pig and turkey farmers in these parts, oo arrr, I don't know if they've sorted the ethnicity issues with cattle, but in the UK there have been intense campaigning for the better life of farm animals. A farm in Norfolk was recently shut down for the abuse to pigs that were just being reared to be slaughtered. So yeah, we're quite keen on our animal well-fare - I mean, head to Wales! There are sheep EVERYWHERE! And in Scotland? Angus Cattle going "mooooooooo" on the highland.

So we're quite nice to our animals. Although we're still campaigning for the chickens.

The issue is Halel (if I've spelt that right) meat in this country. That's where the animal, cattle and lamb (not piggies, oink oink), are hung upside down and left to bleed out whilst completely alive. It has to do with the Muslim religion, I'm not sure why. However, it is now compulsory to have it clearly labeled if it's Halel meat.

Again, chickens have the rawest deal. I can't remember how many petition I've seen (and signed) to make it illegal to have battery hens.

Conditions are quite different in North America, especially the US.

And about the muslims, well they just seem to be assholes about everything.

FYI, I've seen many beef and dairy farms in upstate NY- NONE of them have those dreadful conditions. I'm not arguing their existence, but I'm not sure they're as prevalent as they used to be. Could be wrong, but I think as long as you eat local you're in the clear.

How can you be so mean to them? They're so cute and cuddly (except cows. They're secretly evil)

Ouch, I'm not muslim or anything but way to hate. Geez

The same aplies to Jews tbh, halal is fairly similar to kosher(the bleeding out alive part). In the netherlands the muslims came up with 'diet' halal, which allows for sedation I think. The jews haven't been as accomodating, they were fairly upset when a large group of political parties pushed for banning halal/kosher slaughter. The bill didnt pass, but hopefully it still helped out somewhat.

I think it's unnecessary cruel to kill animals in that manner. It may be part of their religion, but other people's religions will dictate something and they'll drop it if it's considered wrong (you know, like stoning adulterers to death)

I'm not vegan but I do have a decent understanding of the mindset and I don't think it's so much to do with the transfer of materials and the animals not "needing" them as the fact that the animals are being bred and held for these substances, like machines.

I have never seen an animal treated in the same way as a machine.

I understand the mindset of not wanting to participate in the cruel treatment of animals. But the fact is, that in this country (UK), it's very rare to have an animal that's not allowed to wander around outside. Everything is clearly labelled if it's free range or if it's Halel.

I find it amusing that you're the one who's using machinery lexis, like "transfer of materials" and "substances". I'm treating them like they're living animals. And most farmers (in the UK) treat their livestock with kindness.

I don't really understand the mindset; fact is, we need a lot of dairy products in our diet in order to keep us healthy. And in fact, the meat supplement 'Quorn' is filled with all types of unnatural chemicals. Is that really better for you?

Drinking milk isn't actually all that great for you, ever notice we are the only species on the entire planet that drinks milk past infancy? Let alone the milk of a different species. I mean the odd glass here and there isn't bad but it isn't exactly a health product, it is also linked to acne outbreaks and most people outside of the EU and NA can't even consume milk because they stop producing the enzyme after wheening, and the places that stop consuming it have the lowest rates of diabetes.

You don't need to tell me about drinking milk. I am lactose intolerant.

But I said "dairy products"; that includes eggs and the like.

Still, I think that an all round mixed diet is a lot better than you than a diet with supplements and with artificial chemicals in food.

Supplements? Multivitamins and Protein powder are much better for you than 90% of the food on the market. They also help get you what most food nowadays is missing which are the micronutrients.

Yes, eggs are extremely good for you.

That's bullshit, to be frank. I don't know what markets you go to but obviously not good ones.

Then again, market = home "grown" food here (I mean stuff that have been produced or brought up by locals, so including stuff like hand reared lamb and the like).

I don't really care what you say; all the "diet expects" (can't recall the term atm) I see do not recommend having a diet filled with supplements (note: I see them because of medical conditions, and a way around it without having to stay on tablets which have a high risk of liver failure)

Ok you're right, I will say that what you are doing is working hands down.

Probably why you are overweight right?

Where as I am 6'5 225 and less than 10% body fat.

Man I must be doing something wrong, can you please tell me what you are eating so I can be more like you?

Oh wait, your weight doesn't have anything to do with your eating habits right? it's probably something else, like a medical condition or something lol, it couldn't possibly be that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

As for "recommended diets" most of those are severely out dated.

I'm just going to go back to my Kinesiology and nutrition teachers and tell them Nixie the Pixie told me supplements are bad and that everything they are teaching us is wrong!

Won't be responding to anymore of your retarded posts lol.

The reason why I'm overweight is because I'm a lazy shit and like fizzy drinks a bit too much. It has nothing to do with my diet thanks (minus the drinks bit).

I find it interesting, since my size 4 aunt (which is a size 0 over there) is a nutritionist, and we have the same size portions. The difference is, she doesn't have fizzy drinks and goes to the gym twice a week.

And it funny, right, that I haven't changed my diet at all, but increased my exercise and I lost 13 pounds in two weeks. Yeah, definitely down to my food intake.

And, FYI, I do have a medical condition which means it's easy to gain weight and harder to lose it, but I know that all I need to do with work harder than normal in order to do it.

See, I can do something about my weight; you're gonna be stuck with that personality though, which is sad :(

What nixie said, sugars man, they make people fatter then fat ever did. Fats arent all bad, they help you feel full and make you stop eating. Since the 70s the american diet has had less and less fat but more and more sugars, I wonder if it has something to do with the rising obesity in the country?

Diet items are like light cigarettes, you dont get your fix and have to smoke more to get the same result. Meaning you get more tars and carcinogens in your lungs.

As for the supplements, they tend not to include all the rare other stuff you're body doesnt really need but likes all the same. Though I'm by no means an expert on the subject, I do think eating an actual piece of fruit is better for you then eating its equivalent of vitamins.

eggs aren't dairy products... they're animal byproducts

They're classed as dairy products.

And technically, all dairy products are animal byproducts. They all contain a bit of the animal in them.

um, no they're not. They are placed under the meat and protein category due to their high levels of protein and such. Look at any food pyramid, smart one. Check this out http://kidshealth.org/kid/stay_healthy/food/pyramid.html#

I did a quick google search on it, and didn't bother to check it.

"ohhh we got a badass over here!"

I think it would be amusing if a predator that hunted us came along and gave vegans and environmentalists a new perspective on the whole survival of the fitest concept...

It would be a rude awakening.

Alas, I have no issue on the "conserving wildlife" standpoint, but actually crops do more to damage the local wildlife than eating meat does.

True story, the pesticides can really damage the soil.

I'm not talking about pesticides (or herbicides and some fertilizers). I actually mean crops themselves. They absorb all the nutrients, and if the crop is not rotated it'll result in that area being unable to grow anything. Animals, on the other hand, trim the grass and also naturally fertilize the soil too. They do more good for the land than plants do.

cows also fart and kill the ozone :P

Sadly the only reason I knew any of the mentioneditems above was because I played age of empires...

I'm not trying to milk a mentally handicapped person.

You are aware that milk and honey have no use to the cows or bees? When we "take" it from them, it's not needed any more.

And cows adore being milked. Try taking yourself to a Dairy Farm. Those are some happy cows. In fact, it can cause serious harm to the cow if you don't milk them.

how are you retarded enough to say that, but clever enough to type?

Is that directed to yourself?

I think galactic was.

It's true- once they start producing milk they can get mastitis if they aren't milked regularly. However, they're also bred regularly to keep them producing milk- if the calf weans naturally, the cow will slowly stop producing it. If the cow is never bred, it will never produce milk. HOWEVER, it does NOT harm the cow to be milked regularly, and they do come eagerly running at milking time, for what that's worth. The farm my siblings work at takes very good and careful care of their herd.

I think they pump the cows full of steroids and hormones and breed them selectively so that cows nowadays produce like 50x more milk than they naturally would have. In most non-organic places.

I think America just sucks when it comes to well-fare to animals, tbh lol

Again, our little milk makers roam about the place. True, they're not hand milked any more (it's by a machine), but I've seen one go absolutely go ape-shit when it was hooked in wrong. They know what they want.

It's important to practice proper milking techniques

Not the ones at the farm next door, at least. I don't think they claim to be "organic" but the cows are bred selectively, yes. But again. does not seem to hurt the cow- yes they produce more milk, but they are also larger to handle the extra weight.

It doesn't hurt the cow because they milk it, it is still an unnatural life cycle for them to be constantly producing milk their whole lives. Not saying it's torture or anything, it's just different from what would happen without human interference. Again not saying it's all that bad as long as the animals are treated well.

True enough. However, without human interference they'd still be buffalo or aurochs or whatever we bred them down from way back in the day. Also not bad, but I think we've pretty well shot down any chance of "natural" existence for a few hundred years back.

Well they would get torn apart if left to roam in the wild, so they need us nowadays anyways lol.

bred towards more milk, definitely.

steroids/hormones, probably not(exesively). they would carry over into the milk, making it possibly harmfull to us. There was a huge shitstorm in spain a while back because hormones in chicken(meat) were making 7 year old girls start their periods. The amount of hormones in our food IS probably/possibly(it seems legit) the reason why chilndren are hitting puberty at younger ages though :(

so yea the non biologic/organic cows still get questionable food, possibly with meat..

And yes, most cows dig being milked. It's why they can make those self milking stations for them.

when she isn't shit, she'll have a point.

...that probably aint gonna happen though...

fun fact the mentally handicapped don't have the same rights we do (like kids can't do some thing)

dafuq? cows will produce milk and bees will make honey regardless of if you eat it or not.... so why not just take advantage of naturally occuring awesomeness?